>> [Background Music] The Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania, DRN, is a statewide, non-profit corporation designated as the organization to advance and protect the civil rights of adults and children with disabilities. We work with people with disabilities, families, organizations, and advocates to ensure that people with disabilities can live in their communities free of discrimination abuse and neglect. We identify systemic issues that are important to people with disabilities and seek to change and reform our system through litigation, public policy advocacy, and public education. Our mission is to advance, protect, and advocate for the human, civil, and legal rights of Pennsylvanians with disabilities.

>> Hello. I'm Terry Roth. And I'm here today with Linda Anthony. We want to talk to you about community organizing. Also with us through the wonders of modern technology is Mark Johnson. Linda and I are in Harrisburg. Mark is in Atlanta, Georgia. And we want to talk to you about community organizing and in particular about community organizing around the Americans with Disabilities Act. I, rather than keeping talking at you I'd really like to get Mark and Linda to introduce themselves. Mark? Would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

>> Well, as you mentioned I live here in Atlanta. And in 1971 at the age of 19, I became a wheelchair user as a result of an injury to my spinal cord injury. I've been involved in the movement since the '70s when I got involved in starting the metro Atlanta chapter of the National Paraplegic Foundation. On a personal level I've been married over 30 years, and my daughter is actually getting married a week from Saturday.

>> Oh, that's great. Thanks Mark. Linda, tell us a little bit about yourself especially that part about how you won the Emmy Award.

>> Thank you. My name is Linda Anthony. And I have been, I acquired my disability at the age of 29. Thirty years ago. And I had my second son after I acquired my disability. So I was involved in advocacy with my son for the first few years. I also learned how to advocate for his needs before I learned to advocate for my own. And at some point during my career here as a disability rights activist, the Pennsylvania Broadcasting System, PBS, approached me about doing a video because we had been using Lady Liberty as a gimmick to get the press to draw our issue out. And I told them that, they interviewed me for a show they have called, "People Who Must." And after the interview I agreed to let them do the show about me as long as they really highlighted the movement and what it was about. And I think they did an excellent job of that. And I believe that is probably why it won an Emmy.

>> I think we have a picture of Linda dressed as the Statue of Liberty. And she's appeared in that costume many times and gotten a lot of great attention to the whole idea of life, living independent. I think you can tell already that we have folks here with a wealth of life experience as well as work and volunteer experience in organizing and getting things done. So having said that, let's get right to it. I want to talk a little bit about how this, how you got into this kind of work. And Mark I wonder if you'd start a little bit and tell us what got you involved in this work.

>> Well, I think first of all Linda I'm still waiting for that signed autographed picture of you and Lady Liberty. So anytime you want to send that that'd be good. You know there was a lot of, we all have defining moments in our life. And obviously my injury in '71 was one defining moment. And then actually the starting of that with other folks helped, the starting of that support group was a defining moment. And that group, began to do more than just sit around and, you know, tell each other stories and support each other we also began to do some advocacy. And so in 1979 our whole community got very excited that they were going to build the first regional mall in Charlotte, North Carolina. And in this regional mall was going to be one of the movie theaters that had more than one screen. And that was a big deal in the late '70s where, you know, you are going to have this mall. You are going to have this movie theater. 

^M00:05:04

You know, you'd be able to go to different movies and different sections of the movie theater. So we anticipated, you know, this is going to be a great thing that we, you know, as people in the community could do. So we monitored the construction of it. And what we began to realize is what it looked like that it wasn't going to be accessible. And lo and behold when they did the ribbon cutting and someone slipped down to enjoy that, we found out that it wasn't. In fact what you had to do was go down a series of steps to get your ticket, you know, to get your popcorn and then go into the individual theaters. So, you know, initially we called out the management, you know? We began to talk to them on the phone. We began to write letters. And believe it or not we did that for almost a year, you know, trying to think that maybe that would actually get them to stop and make the correction, you know, put a ramp in it, put a lift in it, whatever they had to do. And when we begin to realize that wasn't going to happen, you know, we decided to plan a little direct action. You know? So we got all of our, anybody and everybody that had a wheelchair, especially ones that had power chairs. And we went to the movie theater. And they said, "Well, do you have any people that help you get down?" We said, "No, that's your responsibility. You're going to have to carry us down." And so one by one we were carried down into the section where you get your tickets and your popcorn. And lo and behold we also invited the media. So all over the news that night, all over the news the next day was that image of them carrying one of my colleagues down in the wheelchair. In fact that was a front-page news story that [multiple speakers].

>> Mark, I think we have the.

>> It's going to be on the screen right?

>> Yeah. I think we have a picture.

>> So I think, you know, two weeks later, you know, the management informed us in writing that a lift would be added to the movie theater so that our entire community would have access in the future. And so that really was kind of a defining moment for me and kind of what got me really started not just being an advocate but being an activist.

>> Mark, thanks for sharing that. And we do, we did show folks the newspaper clipping from that. Linda, how about you? You've been I know involved in so many local, state, and national campaigns. What got you started?

>> Well, as I said earlier, it was really the needs of my son that prompted my early advocacy even before I started working at a center for independent living. When he was very small he wanted to go into our local library for a reading group that they held there. And he was about three years old at the time. And lo and behold the library was not accessible. I went to the librarian, but we ended up having to launch this huge campaign so they could raise enough funds to renovate the library. And we kept at it. And we kept working with her. I'm happy to say that ten years later it was accessible and is accessible to this day. But now my son doesn't want to go into the reading groups anymore. And on a more personal note, I think when I first acquired my disability I didn't really see it as a barrier of any kind. I was very optimistic about everything until the very first time I spoke to someone who, he ran a racetrack. And I used to go onto the racetrack in the pit area. And when I went to him and asked for an accessible bathroom he looked at me for a while and then said that I was a safety hazard. That was the first time I had ever been called a safety hazard. I didn't know how to respond. I just looked at him and, you know, and he said, "Well, those bathrooms are for the drivers, so if you became a driver that'd be a different story." So I became a driver. I ran one race. And then took a full time job at the Center for Independent Living. So racing was out and disability advocacy began.

>> You didn't win the race, did you?

>> No, I didn't win the race.

>> But you've won quite a few since then.

>> Yes, I have.

>> Well, so we've heard about racetracks, and we've heard about movie theaters, and we've heard about libraries. Let's talk a little bit about what was happening for other folks around the country, what was starting to move people to organize and maybe to move toward a civil rights law for everyone. Mark, can you give us some indication?

^M00:09:49

>> Well, I think, you know, there were veterans coming back from, you know, Vietnam and, you know with amputations and other injuries and...so there was a lot of, you know, images of people with disabilities in the '60s. And, you know, one of the first civil rights act that impacted people with disabilities was the Architectural Barriers Act in '68, you know, where it said, you know, to get federal funds, you know, to construct a building, you know, that had federal funded services in it it had to be accessible. And so, you know, that was really the first beginnings of laying the groundwork for ADA was the Architectural Barriers Act of '68. And then in '73 we, you know, what about, well if you can have access to the building that's fine, but what about access to the programs and services for all people with disabilities? And so in '73 the Architectural Barriers Act passed. And that was important. And that actually required some sit ins as well. And then when Reagan came into office there was American Public Transit Association versus Lewis. And that laid some groundwork because that took us backwards. That all of the sudden said that the states could decide what was best for people with disabilities. The local communities could decide. So you had inconsistency all around the country. And then there groups like ADAPT getting started in '83, you know, to get lifts on all new buses because now 504 didn't have as much teeth. And so there were a lot of things going on that laid the ground work for the need for a comprehensive civil rights legislation that reinforced not just the Architectural Barriers Act and 504, but actually also addressed the need in the private sector. So there was a lot of groundwork being laid.

>> Thanks Mark. The other thing that was happening was an increasing recognition that there were people who were locked away in institutions who didn't need to be, people who could be living in the community with some supports. And instead their lives were being wasted inside institutions. And we're very fortunate to have one of those folks, a colleague of ours and a good friend, Jean Searle. Jean is going to, you're going to hear Jean's story of the time that she spent in an institution and what's happened to her since. Can we play Jean's story please?

>> My name is Jean Searle and I lived in an institution. ^M00:12:21 I was born in Philadelphia with an intellectual disability and fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. ^M00:12:27 I did not grow up with a "normal" family. Both my mom and my dad had a disability. ^M00:12:36 My mom was institutionalized and died in the institution. ^M00:12:39 I often wonder if they had the supports they needed, how different would I be today? ^M00:12:46 I became part of the foster system when my grandparents were unable to care for me. ^M00:12:53 January 3, 1975; I was 12. They told me to pack up my things. ^M00:12:59 I will never forget that day. They dropped me off at an institution and said goodbye. ^M00:13:07 They thought I would be safer with people who were "like" me. ^M00:13:12
 The institution became my prison for the next seven years. You do what they told you, when they told you, how they tell you or else. ^M00:13:23 Staff had to approve what you wore. You ate what you were given. When I was 18, I was moved to a different institution. Just another prison. ^M00:13:36 It was worse. If you did something they did not like you were hit with the belt, starved, or they would make you sit on a chair ^M00:13:49 in the corner of the living room, facing the wall, with your hands tied behind your back as other people watched TV or a movie.
^M00:13:58
Staff controlled everything. I was punished for things I did not do and forced to bathe other inmates that needed help because the staff did not want to. ^M00:14:10 I remember being so lonely. I was not allowed to attend the funeral service of my father, grandmother, grandfather, or mom. I did not get to say goodbye. ^M00:14:23
 To this day, I do not know where my mom is buried. I was trapped. My life was not better because I lived in an institution. ^M00:14:36 I was not safe because I lived in an institution. I was not cured, only forgotten. ^M00:14:45 In 1984 because of the work of people and a lawsuit called Pennhurst I was set free. ^M00:14:53 I cried the day they told me. I did not have to live in an institution. I am happy now. 

^M00:15:00

I work. I control my own money. I have friends. I go out to eat in restaurants, shopping at the mall, ^M00:15:08 or watch a movie in the theater. I decide what I want to wear, what I want to eat, how I do things, when I do things. ^M00:15:18 I have the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from my mistakes. ^M00:15:22 I can try new things, and if I fail it's okay. I help other people get out and stay out of institutions. ^M00:15:32 My worst fear is that they will take me back to the institution. This is why I tell my story. ^M00:15:39 I am afraid that if I do not join others and speak up my rights and freedom will be taken away again.

^M00:15:47
>> Jean. Thank you so much for sharing your story. And thank you so much for the work that you do every day on behalf of other folks so that they too can be in the community. So what we've talked about so far is people being denied access, people being locked up really against their will and unnecessarily. And I'm wondering how we get from those wrongs, those injustices to the idea of promoting a national civil rights law. And Mark I'm hoping that you can talk to us a little bit about how did the grassroots actions and the concerns that we've spoken about, how did that start to get translated?

>> Well, you know, as the noise level, you know, increased in different communities where people were fighting like Jean and people were around the country, you know, in protest to the lack of access to transportation and other things, the National Council on the Handicapped, that's what it was called at that time, decided to do a report to the President and Congress. And that report talked about what needed to be done to make education better and employment opportunities more available and housing, you know, more accessible. And one of the recommendations that came out of that report was to have a comprehensive civil rights law so that people wouldn't be forced to live in institutions and people could ride public transit and so, you know, I had this image, which is being shown on the screen now of the cover of Toward Independence with the big eagle and, you know, and the blue background. And, you know, it's just a beautiful image that I still have on my desk today. And that report was submitted to the President and Congress in 1986.

>> Thanks. Thanks, Mark. Linda, was there something going on in PA at the time that sort of, you know, kept the ball rolling?

>> Well, there were like support groups. There were some action groups around Pennsylvania, groups like Open Doors for the Handicapped were in northeast PA. And they were talking up the ADA. They were talking about accessibility. There was also in the intellectual disability community there was Speaking for Ourselves. Again, the themes of these groups that kind of were emerging seemed to be very much in favor of consumer control and consumer direction. And it was all a piece of what they felt the ADA could bring to their lives.

>> It seems like such a big effort. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about Mark maybe tell us, how did the idea get translated into an actual plan?

>> Well, you know, I mean, I, one of the organizing tools that I know I learned in the early '80s was, you know, was the pitch fork, it's an image of a pitch fork. And that pitchfork has five prongs. And when I sit down with any person or any group of people and start developing a strategic plan. First of all, you have to make a conscious decision to have an inside strategy and an outside strategy. And also you have to make a conscious decision to use everybody's skills. Not everybody is comfortable talking to an elected official. Not everybody is comfortable, you know, doing protests. But the fact is you have to have a conversation. And what the pitchfork model of organizing does is forces the group to go through each area of organizing. So one of the prongs on the pitchfork is education and media. You know, are there things you can do to educate the masses about your issue? One of the other points on the pitchfork is the system. Who on the inside are your allies? You can't assume that everybody that works for government or everybody that works for an agency is not on your side. So you identify your allies on the inside. You obviously have to hold your elected officials accountable. 

^M00:19:57

And that's a third point or prong on the pitchfork. Your fourth one is legal. You know, when we were, when section 504 wasn't being implemented we had to take people to court. And you as a lawyer kind of know the importance of that legal strategy. And that was a fourth point on the pitchfork. The fifth one is direct action. I mentioned earlier, you know, our support group, you know, did a protest at that movie theater, and we did some direct action. And it generated media. It generated allies on the inside because there were people at that mall and that management that were appalled that things were inaccessible. So, you know, any time that you are developing a strategy it's important to commit to inside outside strategy. It's also important to have a conversation about each of the points in the pitchfork whether you implement them right away or not, it's just important to have people in groups have a conversation. 

>> OK. Thanks. Mark, can you talk a little bit about leaders that emerged during that time period?

>> Well, I'll tell you what it really is, back to that inside strategy, you know, one of the leaders of the independent living movement, Lex Frieden out of Texas, was actually asked to come to D.C. and be the executive director of the National Council on the Handicapped who did that report. And so you automatically knew you had an ally on the inside that could do, play his role. You also had Justin Dart, you know, who was a rather wealthy individual who had the resources for him and his wife, Yoshiko, to travel around the country and hear people's stories and document those stories. And they went across the country a couple times collecting these stories and identifying potential people who could play a role in the overall strategy.

>> Linda, did you want to add something about the stories?

>> Yeah. I, the Discrimination Diaries that Justin started were something that we still use that strategy today. We gather stories about people who are either waiting for services or people who are in services. And they talk about how it has made their life different. And their independence, what it means to them. So, they've actually become really good ammunition for getting people's voices heard. Not everybody can come and be somewhere to talk about it. So we still use that strategy. And it's a really good way of getting people's voices heard. I, as an organizer, I used to worry that it was my job to know all the answers. And it isn't. It's really our job as organizers to make sure that the people's voices are heard, that they are out there, and that's who is telling the story.

>> That's, I think, a really powerful lesson. And we learned from listening to Jean earlier, those stories really do move people. Well, speaking of moving people. So now we've got the idea of what needs to be done. We've got the beginnings of a plan. We have leaders emerging, how do we, what was done at the time with ADA to recruit groups and individuals to be part of, I think of it as the foot soldiers. And I'm not really a military person, but that just comes to mind. You know, how do you get the foot soldiers that really move you ahead? Mark, can you speak a little bit about that?

>> One of the good things about the development of Toward Independence was, there were hearings. And back to like Jean's story, that whole, you know, slogan that the movement uses "nothing about us without us." And so it's real important, you know, Lex and his staff and his board and Justin and Yoshiko when they went around the country was, the whole idea was, you know, what do you want? What do you need? And what's the mutual benefit here? I mean, one way to recruit people to sit down and have a conversation about what is the mutual benefit, you know, we all stand to gain if we come together. And so there were natural networks out there already to mobilize, you know, DREDF, the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund had been going around the country and training people on Section 504, the Rehab Act. So there was a natural network there to mobilize. There was another natural network, you know, in 1983 when ADAPT got started. You know, affiliates around the country, people out there blocking buses. People were out there chasing the trade groups that opposed lifts on all new buses. So there were some very natural, you know, networks to mobilize. And it goes back to people having that conversation. What's the mutual benefit here? If we all have civil rights, we all have civil rights whether you're Jean, whether you're Linda, whether you're Mark, whatever your disability is. 

^M00:24:59

And so it was really easy, also there was, Linda mentioned, the creation of independent living centers, which are, you know, consumer controlled. That was a natural network to mobilize. So we had some very natural networks in the disability community to mobilize. And we also had some allies that were other civil rights groups, you know, traditional civil rights groups, Libertarian groups or, you know, just other human rights groups that we could reach out to and say, "Hey." Not everybody in this country has their civil rights yet. And when ADA passes, we'll all have our civil rights.

>> I always find it interesting that if you think about it when you're starting on a campaign, it is important, I think, to think about who are the groups out there that aren't necessarily the traditional allies but maybe they're a little outside. They're not part of the disability movement. But, for example, when we were early in the days of working on voting accessibility we talked to, we brought in the League of Women Voters. They weren't involved in disability issues, but we got them involved, and they were very interested. Linda, I think you've had some experience like that as well.

>> Yeah. In the course of my work at the Independent Living Center, I actually had an issue come up from one of my consumers. And what they wanted me to help them with was the problem of shopping in this very huge store we have called Boscov's. And.

>> A little free advertising for Boscov's.

>> Yes. The problem was that you couldn't shop throughout the store because everything was so tight. I remember my son used to have to look under the racks of clothes to find my wheels. But it was getting more and more crowded that you couldn't even get in there. So when my, the people that were in my group met with the store owner he listened to their story. He agreed to do some sensitivity training. We had an article in the paper about it in the human-interest part. And lo and behold, the people that emerged to help us with the problem were mothers with strollers who could not shop in the store because they couldn't get into the aisle. They weren't going to leave their child in a stroller outside the clothes racks. So when you sometimes don't expect it you are going to find people that will naturally bond with you.

>> Right.

>> And work to make it happen.

>> And that gives you a louder voice obviously. Linda, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, it's one thing to get people involved initially. How do you keep them involved?

>> Well, I think one of the ways, one of the things that we do is we mentor folks who don't have the experiences that we do. We are constantly trying to find folks that we can help them towards leadership.

>> Right.

>> If they demonstrate those qualities we mentor them. And we constantly communicate with them so they know what's going on. Information is power. But the other thing that you do in terms of people is they need to be inspired. If you bring together and you talk about things in a very passive way like, you know, isn't this terrible that we cannot get into this pizza place? What are we going to do to get them to listen to us? And so you have to get people to understand that the fight is really theirs. This is a civil rights legislation. They need to be the ones to say, "I want to get in to your store. I want to spend my money inside your store, and I can't get in." So what are you going to do about it? And people need to know that number one they need to constantly be reminded that they do have these rights. Those were born with their disabilities often don't even feel that they have those rights. And we have to constantly remind them that that is true. So I think that you inspire them by giving them, you pep them up, remind them of what their rights are, you remind them if they're not happy where they are in their lives, and you remind them that the only one who can change that is them. And by getting involved they can make a difference.

>> Yeah. I think keeping people informed too so that everybody understands and feels, don't you think everybody needs to feel part of the plan and part of the action so that they have a personal, not just their personal interest, but they have a personal stake in working with others towards that end?

>> Yeah. And I believe there's also, an important thing is to find a job for everyone. If someone's best thing they do is making cookies, well, then that will feed the troops.

^M00:29:58

 So you find what talent your group has. And then you use that. And you let them roll with it. So often we try to control things. We set up committees but yet we still try to control them. It's important to empower people with disabilities by letting them do things for themselves and to see and to feel that satisfaction.

>> A little while ago I think Mark mentioned the importance of working with the media. And I wanted to turn the conversation a little bit to communications. How we talk to attract media attention and help inform the general public, how we communicate with each other and how we communicate with some of the policy makers that control these decisions that affect all of our lives. So in terms of communications techniques, obviously at the time of the Americans with Disabilities Act there were less available communications techniques. Mark, can you talk a little bit about some of the stuff that you all did both to communicate among yourselves and also to get your message out to the general public?

>> Both of you all mentioned the importance of building community whether it's just talking to each other or whether it's breaking bread with each other. But I think one of the things that I know my mentor, and I'm glad Linda mentioned mentors. You know, my mentor, Wade Blank, you know, was a Presbyterian minister who had been involved in the civil rights movement. And one of the things he helped me understand real fast was that it's important to change the rules of the game. You know, one of the ways I advocated for lifts on buses was to take people who didn't need lifts on buses and sit in front of that bus and say, "Hey, you can get on and I can't. Is that right?" You know? And so that communication with the individuals who aren't experienced in what we are day to day was important. Making it personal is important. You know, and as we have already said telling stories. One of the things Wade taught me about in the context of communication, it's all right to be emotional. In fact, one of his philosophies was until there's an emotional change, no intellectual persuasion works. So in communication you can spend all the time you can do talking about, for example, lifts on buses. You know, a lift only costs this much amortized over this many years. They only cost that much, and you'll generate revenue at the box that will help pay for the lifts. Well, that's all intellectual persuasion. The bottom line is sometimes you have to just make it emotional and go block that bus that didn't have a lift on it. And so all that communication and stuff, you know, played out on the media. All that direct action. But, you know, we had phones back then. We didn't have Internet and email and texting and, you know, the social media that we have now. And so we literally had to have face-to-face meetings and face-to-face gatherings. And we literally had to talk to each other on the phone. And I know you're not a big fan of them Terry, but you remember those phone tree days where you would get the call, and then your job was to call 10 more people so they would call 10 more people. So we really relied a lot on gatherings and face to face. We really relied a lot on phones.

>> You know, I'm somebody that my colleagues are probably laughing now because I'm not somebody who is usually associated with the use of technology. But I'm very grateful that I can send an email and reach 100 people, so that I don't have to make 100 phone calls. Linda, in terms of, again, communication and getting the message out, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about some of the, my father used to call them gimmicks that we use to get public attention to the issues that we're working on.

>> Well, there are several ways of getting public's attention. And the reason you want to do that is so you get the issue out there. You get people talking about it over the breakfast table; over the supper table. So getting the press sometimes can be actually what your goal is so that you get your message out there far and wide. And as we, one of the strategies or tactics that ADAPT uses as an activist group is civil disobedience. Now civil disobedience isn't for everyone. It doesn't work for everyone. But for those who can do it it has made some immeasurable changes I believe in how the system has been working. However, because it isn't for everyone you also have to have jobs, you know, for the other folks. And there are jobs for everyone. The reason that I particularly like using theater is because it's a great way to give a job to everyone to involve everyone in the process of producing this theater. 

^M00:34:59

And you kind of use the situation at hand. I'll give you an example. And here in Pennsylvania for quite some time our Department of Public Welfare kept holding people up from getting their services. It was taking longer and longer, months for someone who applied and then had to wait for services. And we kept hearing that it's the red tape, you know, there's nothing we can do about it. It's the red tape. So what we did was about 15 people, we went up to the Department of Public Welfare building. We held a press conference, just these 15 people. But the press came. And what we did during that press conference was had one of our colleagues standing here as one of our other colleagues was talking about home and community-based services and how it important it was to her and her life. And as that person is relating their story, we are wrapping that, our other colleague up in red tape from head to toe until she was mummified. And then we laid her down on the sidewalk. The cameraman and the reporter both went out on the street, on the ground, so that they could film her and get her story while she was laying on the ground. But, you know, it did make the papers that night. It was a good way to get the point out about red tape and what it's doing to people's lives. So it's, and the other gimmick we mentioned earlier was the use of the Lady Liberty costume as a way of people recognizing right away that freedom should be for everyone in this country. And that's why we've used the Lady Liberty costume over and over.

>> Yeah.

>> It says a lot in one picture.

>> It's a powerful image.

>> Yes.

>> Well, obviously communication is really important both for your group to communicate with each other, but also to get the attention of the general public. Another thing that is really important is keeping the momentum going because no major change, even small change can take a long time. And it's hard to keep that commitment going. And so I wanted to turn to some ideas about how we do that. Mark, how long was it from, would you say, from sort of the early getting the idea for ADA until the actual passage?

>> One way you do that is you celebrate every victory regardless of how small it is. And sometimes those victories may just be somebody speaking out for themselves or as Jean said later in her testimonial there, she now had control of her life where she could decide what to eat and when to eat it, what to watch and how loud to play her music. So I think it's real important for advocates and activists just to celebrate every small victory. You know, take that newspaper article that Linda was talking about with the red tape and that image and post it on the wall. Now today you can post it on your Facebook. So, you know, it's just real important to celebrate every step of the way and to catalogue it because it is history. We are making history. I think people have to look at it as the fact that we're making history. So, you know, I look at it as 32 years keeping momentum going. I look at ADAPT from '83 to '90 doing direct action as part of that momentum. Every time we did a direct action, every time we got a news story, every time somebody felt powerful enough to go back home to make more noise, that was a victory. And then obviously from Toward Independence from '86 to '90, you know, we celebrated every hearing we had. We celebrated every testimonial we could add to the Discrimination Diary.  It was just important to celebrate.

>> And even if it's just a small thing, sometimes you have to look really hard. I keep thinking about my daughter's softball coach. They had the losingest team ever. And this coach always found something positive to say. And one time Jill came up to bat. She struck out on three bad pitches. And I went closer because I wanted to hear how he could possibly find something positive to say. And he went up to Jill after at bat, and he put his arm around her, and he said, "Jill, you look great in your uniform today." So sometimes you got to look hard to find something to celebrate, but those celebrations really help. Linda, do you have any ideas about keeping the momentum going and how you keep people energized?

>> Well, sometimes I think for groups the goal can be very overwhelming or there's no clear path on how you're going to get there. So if you sit down with a group and you create steps to reaching that long-range goal, what's the first thing the group is going to do? 

^M00:39:58

Is it writing a letter to the Boscov's and saying we'd like to meet with you to talk about the inaccessibility of the store?

>> Right.

>> Again, try to find a job for everyone in that process. Someone can write the letter. Someone can, you know, can make sure they can edit, they can work with one another. But you find who has those kind of talents and you use them for that. I think the other thing is as Mark said you celebrate the stepping-stones. Now if you write a letter and you actually get a meeting, it may not seem like much, but it's worth celebrating because you didn't have that meeting before. You are now going to have a chance to voice the concern. The other thing is you constantly are reshaping your plan. You often have to stop and reevaluate the plan. Is there something we need to change? Is there a different direction we should be going? So you're constantly relooking at your plan. And involve your group members in that.

>> Right.

>> Make a joint decision.

>> You don't want just the leaders making those decisions. 

>> Exactly. 

>> You want people to, yeah.

>> If you expect people to stand up for what they believe in and stand up for those rights. You know, you really have to make them feel vested and part of the process.

>> Absolutely.

>> Otherwise you're just using them as everyone else does.

>> I wonder, we've talked a lot about the positive aspects of organizing and keeping people involved. There's a negative side as well. There's always that person in the group who makes it all about him or her or, you know, who goes off on a tangent in a different direction. I'm wondering if you two would be willing to share some ideas of how to deal with that sort of conflict or problems within a group. I'm guessing that some of that must have happened on organizing for the ADA. Mark, could you share a little bit on that?

>> It never happened [laughter].

>> I'm sorry Mark. I find that really hard to believe.

>> I know. Bottom line, it's normal. I think, first of all, in the context of any campaign it is normal for people to have egos. It's normal for people to feel threatened if someone is stepping in their turf. So I think if you just take it as normal it's OK. It's going to happen. Expect it to happen. But also be prepared to deal with it. And I think the constant reminder is, you know, once again, you know, there's a long history of keeping your eye on the prize. And sometimes you just have to get people in the room and say, "Listen, we've lost our focus on the prize. You know, we're in here battling each other, you know, and spending a lot of energy battling each other when really there's a bigger problem out there. And there is a bigger prize out there." So I think first of all it is normal. It's going to happen. Deal with it immediately and keep our eye on the prize. And as Wade used to always tell me, you know, there'll be that day when they sign that law, and you won't even be invited to the ceremony even though you're involved in getting that law passed. And so sometimes you just have to rise above it and go, "Hey, I'm glad it's now the law of the land." 

>> Linda, did you want to add anything?

>> Well, I think he hits the nail on the head when he says deal with it. I think one of the issues that happens with the way we communicate these days through emails and things like that, text messages where people say things in a text or on an email they would not say when you're in front of everybody. You can't put your head in the sand. You can't run away from those kind of issues. You've got to talk it out. And you talk it out with all your members. And you deal with it and not put your head in the sand and try to ignore it. I think one of the other things I learned is that to respect people for who they are and what they're doing. And I constantly am reminding myself that, you know, there are a lot of people who would love to be here with me fighting this and who would love to talk with all of us together in this room, but they're locked up in institutions. And our job here today is, you know, and then you talk about what it is you're going to do. But I think nowadays it's very important to just be up front about things. Don't hide from things that may be a problem because later on it's going to come up and bite you because you ignored it. And it's going to come up at the least time that you want it to. So it's best just to talk about it with your members when you're all together. 

^M00:44:51

>> Don't you think too that you can sometimes get people, you know, if you've got somebody who you know is likely to not go with the party line. Maybe that's not the person you take to the key meeting. You give them a different kind of job or whatever.

>> Yes. Of course you would rehearse your meeting before you go.

>> Right.

>> But you do always have those folks who are, who can be as we call them loose cannons. I once had to negotiate with the mayor of Washington D.C. with 22 people in the room. And one of them was my colleague Spit Fire. And it makes it very difficult to negotiate. But it's very important that those people were there, that they watched the process too because, again, I learned by watching.

>> Right.

>> And it's a great way to learn. 

>> I guess it's really important to recognize that there will be those conflicts. And that you can deal with them and get passed it and have the group feel solidarity and pride in working together. I think about some of the work that we do is across disabilities. And a lot of time the disability groups are not, maybe haven't worked together before. And it is really important to get that cross disability perspective. And I think really helpful and it builds the strength. Certainly had we not had all of the various disability groups so active we wouldn't have an Americans with Disabilities Act. Well, we're coming to the end of our time. And I have a question for each of you. If you could give people just one thing or one area that's most important, one lesson to take away from today, Mark, what would it be?

>> Well, I'll make it quick. Actually I have a couple. One, it's just important to take risk. You know, get outside of your skin. And if it's uncomfortable that's all right. There will be people there to support you. So take risks. Remind yourself you're the expert. You know, Jean's experience that she had, made her an expert.

>> Right.

>> And that makes her a very effective advocate. Be proud and be loud. I meant, you know, it's all right to feel all right about having a disability. It's all right to have disability pride. It's all right to be loud about it. And fourth is, hey, the beauty of the timing of this video is it's 2013. And in 2015, we all have the opportunity to commemorate the 25th anniversary of ADA. And planning efforts are already underway. The ADA Legacy Project I created this year, and it's an opportunity for us to commemorate the anniversary of that but also recognize that there's still a lot to be done.

>> Thanks Mark. Linda?

>> Well, Mark stole a lot of mine, but I think we have the same feelings about these. I think that it's very, very important for people with disabilities to be proud of who they are as a person with a disability. When they feel that love for themselves, then they'll stand up for themselves. I also think that keep your eye on the prize is vital. I know it has been for me, over the 25 years I've been involved with this. I have often sometimes got deterred by, you know, an argument or a discussion about something. And all the while it's what Bob Kafka used to call white noise. You have to ignore that white noise. You have to keep your eye on the prize. Don't get mired down in endless discussions about things that really, in the long run, don't matter. So I just think that pride and keeping your eye on the prize are very, very important. And people need to feel their right to stand up.

>> Thank you. Well, I want to thank both of you for some really valuable insights and some really interesting information. I know this conversation has left me hungry for more information about the history of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Mark, we're showing the website where people can get more information. Can you quickly tell us about the ADA Legacy?

>> Well, the ADA Legacy Project is just a clearinghouse of a lot of efforts. I mean, there's already a person who is going to write a 25th anniversary book. There's already somebody who is going to do an academic journal that focuses on the past, present, and future. There are already conferences being planned. There's already call to actions being planned. So, you know, go to the website. You can find out what's going on, you know, past, present, future, to serve, to celebrate, to educate. And once again, you know, I appreciate the opportunity to be part of this.

>> And Mark, that Legacy Project, we also want folks to know that it's a great way to get some ideas about what you can do for a campaign.

^M00:49:54

>> Yeah, there's a tool kit actually that's part of the website. So you as a local advocate or community can go in and get ideas and have the conversations so you can decide locally how to commemorate the anniversary.

>> Mark, do you know the website? Can you share the web address?

>> It's ADALegacy.com. 

>> That's easy enough.

>> It will go live on the 23rd anniversary of ADA and then be available hopefully from now on.

>> Well, I hope that we've inspired all of you to get involved and to organize. Working together we are unstoppable. This production has been brought to you by the Disability Advocacy Project, which is a project of the Disability Rights Network. And it's funded by the Pennsylvania Developmental Disabilities Council. We're here. We can give you further help on organizing or other kinds of technical assistance. If you would like to get in touch with the DASH Project you can call us at 866-915-3274 or TTY 877-375-7139 and the email address is DASH@DRNPA.org. Thank all of you for listening.

>> [Background Music] The Disability Advocacy Support Hub is a project of the Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania funded by the Pennsylvania Developmental Disability Council to provide trainings and technical assistance to disability advocacy groups in Pennsylvania. If you need technical assistance or have questions, please contact us at, contact DASH by calling 866-915-3274 or 877-375-7139 TDD. You can also email us at DASH@DRNPA.org. Or write to us at DASH, 1414 North Cameron Street, Second Floor, Harrisburg, PA 17103. Current events, audio, and video trainings and other resources can all be found on our website www.DRNPA.org/dash. Community Organizing. This program is a production of the Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania. DRN. Participants, introduction picture one DRN Harrisburg Office Building. Introduction picture two, Eric Howell, Administrative Assistant. Introduction picture three, Judy Banks, Acting Chief Executive Officer. Introduction picture four, Dynah Haubert, Staff Attorney. Introduction picture five, Rocco Iacullo, Staff Attorney. Introduction picture six, Ronece Martinez, Intake Systems Director. Introduction picture seven, Kimi Sweatt, Intake Coordinator. Host Terry Roth. Guest one, Linda Anthony. Guest two, Mark Johnson. Guest three, Jean Searle. Videographer Invica LLC, Chad Edwards. Executive producer, Lan Do. Co-executive producer, George Taylor. Co-executive producer, Dana Thompson. Special thanks to Mark Murphy, Lex Frieden, Gene Stilp, Sol B. Vazquez-Otero, James W. Conroy, J. Gregory Pirmann, Ellen Tierney, Omar Henriquez, Katrina Stirn. Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania, 1414 North Cameron Street, Second Floor, Harrisburg, PA 17103. Toll free 800-692-7443. TDD 717-346-0293. 

^M00:54:55

Website www.DRNPA.org. Pennsylvania Developmental Disabilities Council, Room 561 Forum Building, 605 South Drive, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17120, toll-free 1-877-685-4452, TTY 717-705-0819, website www.paddc.org.  This production is supported by a grant from the Pennsylvania Developmental Disabilities Council. Copyright 2013 Disability Rights Network of Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania Developmental Disabilities Council.  Permission to reprint, copy and distribute this work is granted provided that it is reproduced as a whole, distributed at no more than actual cost and displays this copyright notice.  Any other reproduction is strictly prohibited.